tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post5637750306379876103..comments2023-10-31T20:08:45.037+10:00Comments on Operation 513 - Apologetics Blog: Historical Evidence for JesusRyan Hemelaarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-58621458901796221662009-06-17T09:14:30.345+10:002009-06-17T09:14:30.345+10:00I think chrisgolfs is looking at this from the wro...I think chrisgolfs is looking at this from the wrong point of view, and Ryan is approaching him in the wrong manner.<br /><br />For Ryan: You're not speaking in a way that is going to sink in with chrisgolfs. If someone doesn't accept the legitimacy or reliability of your scripture, you might need to do something other than quote it to make your point. I know you cited Pliny the Younger, but only as an aside. You should make Pliny, Josephus, and others the core of your argument before you bring in scripture quotes.<br /><br />For chrisgolfs: There is a big difference between historical evidence for the Christ of faith and historical evidence for the Jesus of history. Modern historians, including a multitude of non-religious ones, accept the historicity of a historical person named Yeshua (Jesus).<br /><br />As Ryan pointed out, comparing Jesus to Julius Caesar isn't exactly fair. One was the revolutionary leader of an empire, while the other was a poor Jewish peasant. The people who initially followed Jesus were an illiterate crowd, the fringes of society. It is only with Paul, a literate Roman citizen, that we get the first writings about Jesus. Yes, we must acknowledge that Paul's writings are biased since he was a follower of the Jesus-religion. The reason very few secular contemporaries mention him is because the Jesus movement was both small and relegated to the impoverished. One could easily argue that the many miracles and events attributed to him were later additions - this is the point at which the historical Jesus diverges from the Christ of faith. These are not attested by third party sources, and thus their perceived bias must be taken into account.<br /><br />I think you seem to be approaching the historicity of Jesus such that either he existed as the Jesus Christ of scripture or he was a complete fabrication, a myth. I think the appropriate middle road is that he existed, a real person, around whom miracles and stories were built up. At the heart of every pearl is a grain of sand, and I think the Jesus of history got caught up and made into a pearl. For me, it is the grain of sand that is the most interesting.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11693098569357570196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-4795399001017034642009-01-15T13:47:00.000+10:002009-01-15T13:47:00.000+10:00"Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus"As I have s...<I>"Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus"</I><BR/><BR/>As I have said already, that is because he was not a historian. He was a philosopher and dealt with the Jewish religion in some detail. However, his purpose was to make Judaism and Greek philosophy to jive together. Judaism did not accept Jesus as even a prophet of God, so of course he did not mention Jesus in his writings.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, Philo didn't even record any of the other people who led uprisings (when Josephus did), like Theudas or Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:36-37).<BR/><BR/>//"In those days Jerusalem was not a sprawling metropolis, large crowds would stick out."//<BR/><BR/>Jesus only visited Jerusalem three times during His public ministry. Jesus definitely did have crowds of people listening to Him at times, but He purposefully did not become too popular so that He would not get killed too early. That is why sometimes when He saw the crowds, He went away to somewhere were they weren't.Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-49058491291948784792008-12-28T04:55:00.000+10:002008-12-28T04:55:00.000+10:00It does not matter if Jesus liked crowds or not,th...It does not matter if Jesus liked crowds or not,the bible says he had them ALL THE TIME. In those days Jerusalem was not a sprawling metropolis, large crowds would stick out. As far as Caesar goes,his sources are local. Use a concordance and type in "crowd",then tell me he did not encounter crowds......as far as lending credibility to the Historical Jesus by waiting 40 plus years, you must be joking right? Here in reality we call that mythUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324254621765157066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-74603829868806107852008-12-28T04:50:00.000+10:002008-12-28T04:50:00.000+10:00Philo,excuse me not Pliny, anyway Philo of Alexand...Philo,excuse me not Pliny, anyway Philo of Alexandria left manuscripts with aprx 850,000 words. He included local politics, was mainly focused on the Jewish religion. He mentioned Moses over 1,000.<BR/><BR/>Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus, Christianity nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324254621765157066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-10684392545473369822008-12-28T04:42:00.000+10:002008-12-28T04:42:00.000+10:00Contemporary Witnesses to Caesar CiceroOrations an...Contemporary Witnesses to Caesar<BR/> <BR/>Cicero<BR/><BR/>Orations and Letters provide eyewitness evidence of Caesar<BR/> <BR/>Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC) was almost an exact contemporary of Julius Caesar.<BR/>In Caesar's struggle with Pompey, Cicero, governor of Cilicia, sided with Pompey but was subsequently pardoned by Caesar.<BR/>In March of 44 BC Cicero was a witness to Caesar's murder, though he was not a part of the conspiracy.<BR/>Following the assassination, Cicero made a series of speeches known as the "Philippics" which called on the Senate to support Octavian against Mark Antony. Cicero's "Second Phillipics" was an eulogy of Caesar's conquest of Gaul.<BR/>Unfortunately for Cicero Octavian reached a temporary rapprochement with Antony, who then ordered Cicero's murder.<BR/>Among some 900 preserved letters to and from Cicero are correspondence both about and with Caesar.<BR/>"... if Caesar does lose his head all the same, Pompey feels only the deepest contempt for him, trusting in his own and the state's troops..."<BR/>Cicero to Atticus, 7.8, 50BC.<BR/> <BR/><BR/> <BR/> <BR/><BR/>Sallust<BR/>Caius Sallust (86-34 BC) tribune, provincial governor and supporter of Caesar. His testimony is in a history "Bellum Catalinae".<BR/>Nepos<BR/>Cornelius Nepos (c100-24): "Life of Atticus".<BR/>Catullus<BR/>Gaius Valerius Catullus (c84-54 BC): "Carmina".<BR/>Asinius Pollio<BR/>Gaius Asinius Pollio (76 BC-4 AD) was an ally of Caesar and founder of the first public library in Rome. He was a source used by Plutarch.<BR/>Virgil<BR/>Virgil (70BC-17AD): "Aeneid".<BR/>Ovid<BR/>Ovidius Naso (43BC-17AD): "Metamorphoses".Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324254621765157066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-8117243582471965722008-12-25T16:40:00.000+10:002008-12-25T16:40:00.000+10:00"Julius Caesar lived 100 years before Jesus,and he...<I>"Julius Caesar lived 100 years before Jesus,and he had over 10 separate CONTEMPORARY SOURCES validating his existence."</I><BR/><BR/>I would firstly like you to name all 10 of them. Secondly, of course, the name of the Caesar of the greatest empire on Earth at that time would be well known throughout the world.<BR/><BR/><I>"Now remember Jesus had all these hoards of people following him around in his stories."</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, Jesus' public ministry only lasted 3 years before He was crucified. Plus there were not constant crowds following Him all the time, Jesus even sometimes preferred to be where the crowds were not.<BR/><BR/>* Matthew 8:18 - "Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side."<BR/><BR/>* Luke 4:42-43 - "And when it was day, he departed and went into a desolate place. And the people sought him and came to him, and would have kept him from leaving them, but he said to them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose.”"<BR/><BR/><I>"Pliny of Alexandria"</I><BR/><BR/>By that do you mean Pliny the Younger, Pliny the Elder, or Philo of Alexandria? For there was no Pliny of Alexandria. In fact, Pliny the Younger did record about Jesus. Pliny the Elder was a natural philosopher, and not a historian, so thus did not record history. Philo of Alexandria was also a philosopher and not a historian, and did not record history either.<BR/><BR/><I>"Not to mention the fact that ZERO is the number of ANY sources mentioning him during his lifetime."</I><BR/><BR/>Does that prove anything? No. With Jesus, the historical accounts were written not long after Jesus' ascension to Heaven. That does not make them any less reliable, and actually adds to their credibility because there is no possibility that the history recorded could have been modified by the person being recorded (that is, the historian only writes down what the person wants to be recorded about him). And the accounts of Jesus, which are independent and multiply-attested, are definitely not few in number.<BR/><BR/><I>"Jesus does something different in every book"</I><BR/><BR/>But none of the accounts are contradictory.<BR/><BR/><I>"including the many books that did not make the final cut of canonization"</I><BR/><BR/>Because the only ones that did not make it were written hundreds of years later and are obviously written not as historical accounts (gnostical form).Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-7537541210346106892008-12-25T12:59:00.000+10:002008-12-25T12:59:00.000+10:00Julius Caesar lived 100 years before Jesus,and he ...Julius Caesar lived 100 years before Jesus,and he had over 10 separate CONTEMPORARY SOURCES validating his existence. <BR/><BR/>Now remember Jesus had all these hoards of people following him around in his stories. "huge crowds,great crowds,vast crowds,immense crowds,dense crowds,astonished crowds,amazed crowds,multitudes,vast multitudes..,ect. Yet Pliny of Alexandria was quite a thorough historian who lived exactly when Jesus should have been alive,not only that he was IN AND AROUND JERUSALEM. It seems the biggest attraction of the day,God walking around on earth, really did not occur. Not to mention the fact that ZERO is the number of ANY sources mentioning him during his lifetime. These people were not retarded. Many were fully literate. Just like superman, Jesus does something different in every book,including the many books that did not make the final cut of canonization. Obvious myth.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324254621765157066noreply@blogger.com