tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post3064738653939935917..comments2023-10-31T20:08:45.037+10:00Comments on Operation 513 - Apologetics Blog: Dialogue with a Prominent Muslim Apologist, Yusuf EstesRyan Hemelaarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-34591971672206815982008-07-03T14:46:00.000+10:002008-07-03T14:46:00.000+10:00In Hell, you'll be continually dying but never act...<I>In Hell, you'll be continually dying but never actually completely die (so thus you will be there for eternity because your fine will not be fully paid yet).</I><BR/><BR/>Kind of like this discussion - again you havent shown how death is fungible (in fact, I would argue that death is rather unique to the individual and accordingly, not fungible = Your analogy fails).CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-5487734435751667172008-07-03T13:19:00.000+10:002008-07-03T13:19:00.000+10:00But all your objections so far to Christianity abo...<I>But all your objections so far to Christianity about justice has been based upon your misunderstanding of what Christianity actually teaches.</I><BR/><BR/>Huh? I was using your example - do you know what Christianity teaches? <BR/><BR/>BTW - I did a little hack job on you.CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-11975683161606662912008-07-03T12:25:00.000+10:002008-07-03T12:25:00.000+10:00"I have set all this out for you and you still bli...<I>"I have set all this out for you and you still blindly deny it."</I><BR/><BR/>But all your objections so far to Christianity about justice has been based upon your misunderstanding of what Christianity actually teaches.<BR/><BR/><I>"and all you do is deny that logic exists outside of what you determine to be right and wrong."</I><BR/><BR/>If you would noticed, I have <B>never</B> actually said that.Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-68555489847633754372008-07-03T12:14:00.000+10:002008-07-03T12:14:00.000+10:00Your entire last post relied on a misunderstanding...<I>Your entire last post relied on a misunderstanding of what the fine is, so I hope that cleared it up for you.</I><BR/><BR/>You are kidding right? <BR/><BR/>I have set all this out for you and you still blindly deny it. Thats not what logical argument is about. <BR/><BR/>I was expecting a blog war - not a blog slaughter - and yet all I do is destroy your arguments, and all you do is deny that logic exists outside of what you determine to be right and wrong. <BR/><BR/>It is fun though.CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-38744736907014270622008-07-03T10:47:00.000+10:002008-07-03T10:47:00.000+10:00"Although money is fungible, a prison sentence is ...<I>"Although money is fungible, a prison sentence is not."</I><BR/><BR/>I understand that, but the fine for our sin is not a prison sentence, it is death.<BR/><BR/>So if Christ did not pay the fine for us on the cross, then God must send us to Hell because Hell is referred to as the second death (Rev. 21:8). In Hell, you'll be continually dying but never actually completely die (so thus you will be there for eternity because your fine will not be fully paid yet).<BR/><BR/><I>"In order for a payment to be made, the payment must be equal to the fine. Jesus, on your understanding, only spent three (3) days in Hell."</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus did not suffer in Hell for 3 days after he died on the cross because paying the fine did not involve that. As you remember, the wages for our sin is death so his sinless death on the cross was when they payment was complete. That's why Jesus said, "It is finished!"<BR/><BR/>Your entire last post relied on a misunderstanding of what the fine is, so I hope that cleared it up for you.Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-14057283228454338512008-07-03T09:34:00.000+10:002008-07-03T09:34:00.000+10:00I dont think you have properly identified why this...I dont think you have properly identified why this "fine-paying" situation is not just. So let me set it out for you:-<BR/><BR/>Does a just judge put you in jail for your brothers crime? The answer is no. Yet, you argue that a just judge will accept a fine from you (on behalf of your brother - another thing you havent properly crossed) for your brothers crime. <BR/><BR/>So, why are there different responses for these two penalties. The answer is simple, money is fungible (legal term - after all, we lawyers do study and have quite a bit of knowledge on these kinds of issues). <BR/><BR/>Fungible means:- <BR/><BR/>"a commodity that is freely interchangeable with another in satisfying an obligation "<BR/><BR/>Although money is fungible, a prison sentence is not. Accordingly, the analogy of paying a fine may work (for you at least and without recognition of how the fine is technically paid), whereas a penalty of labour (prison time) is not an apt analogy because my time and my brothers time are not interchangeable. <BR/><BR/>I ask you, is Hell similar or different to time in prison? You see, you use the fine analogy because it works, but you ignore the fact that the penalty is not in the form of a fine, but rather the infungible penalty of Hell. <BR/><BR/>Forseeing what is already in your mind I note that even if you argue that sin is fungible - your argument will fail because the analogy you present is with respect to sin (the crime) and not to the penalty (hell). Whereas your analogy states payment is made for your sin (crime) - and not the penalty (the fine). <BR/><BR/>A just judge does not consider a crime to be fungible. Rather, he may only convict the person that committed the crime - not that persons brother. That is the meaning of just. Were I to put you in jail for another crime then I would be an unjust man. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, foregoing all of the above - all of the problems with your belief, there is one more major problem. In order for a payment to be made, the payment must be equal to the fine. Jesus, on your understanding, only spent three (3) days in Hell. Is that the same as an eternity? No. What would a just judge say if my brother was given a fine for $250.00 and I only paid $2.50? The just judge would say the fine has not been paid in full. That is, unless you are prepared to accept that Jesus is still in Hell. Of course, these statements are akin to arguing about the length of the emperors new clothes. <BR/><BR/>I know that you really have faith that your beliefs work - but under legal scrutiny it fails. I am sorry for that. The only advice that I can offer is that there is no pain in humility, only in continuing pride.CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-31634102665696017182008-07-02T21:18:00.000+10:002008-07-02T21:18:00.000+10:00"Rather, you must give your money to your brother ...<I>"Rather, you must give your money to your brother and then your brother must give the money to me."</I><BR/><BR/>That is just a minor rule that is specific to a number of justice systems around the world. It does not violate the concept of justice at all. Just like a lawyer can speak on behalf of the defendant, so I don't see why a fine cannot be paid on behalf of a criminal. Keeping in mind that Jesus doesn't pay the fine without the knowledge of the criminal. <BR/><BR/><I>"Therefore, Jesus cannot pay the judge directly. He must pay me, and then I must pay to God. So, has Jesus paid me, no - I do not remember any act whereby I received this thing from him."</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus has not paid anything to you because Jesus did not die on the cross for everyone. If Jesus did, then everyone should go to Heaven. But rather, Jesus only died on the cross to pay the fine for those who would trust in Him.<BR/><BR/><I>"Furthermore, I cannot pay a fine before it arises - how can Jesus's death before mine be payment for the fine where the fine only takes place on my (later) death."</I><BR/><BR/>However, seeing that God is all-knowing and outside of time, God knew the about the sins we would commit in our lives and so thus Jesus could pay the fine on the cross 2000 years ago.<BR/><BR/><I>"Furthermore, if Jesus has already paid me then why do I have to do anything to get into heaven."</I><BR/><BR/>He hasn't paid it for you. Only if you trust that because Christ died on the cross for you that you can go to Heaven, will Jesus had paid your fine on the cross 2000 years ago.Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-79084176383967528292008-07-02T17:13:00.000+10:002008-07-02T17:13:00.000+10:00Furthermore, if Jesus has already paid me then why...Furthermore, if Jesus has already paid me then why do I have to do anything to get into heaven. <BR/><BR/>Lol - you really dont know anything about justice, come down to the Courts some time and I will show you round.CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-69227883288647239532008-07-02T17:09:00.000+10:002008-07-02T17:09:00.000+10:00You must remember that if someone has a fine that ...<I>You must remember that if someone has a fine that they must pay, the law is not concerned about how they get the money to pay it (whether their parents help them out paying for it or whatever). But rather, the law is only concerned that the fine is paid. So in the same way, the Bible says we have a fine of death to be paid, and so either we pay for it in Hell eternally or Jesus can pay it for us on the cross if we trust in Him.</I><BR/><BR/>Lol - actually, what you are saying here doesnt make sense. If I am a judge I do not accept the money from you for your brothers crime. Rather, you must give your money to your brother and then your brother must give the money to me. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, Jesus cannot pay the judge directly. He must pay me, and then I must pay to God. So, has Jesus paid me, no - I do not remember any act whereby I received this thing from him. Furthermore, I cannot pay a fine before it arises - how can Jesus's death before mine be payment for the fine where the fine only takes place on my (later) death. <BR/><BR/>Its a crap analogy - even though you are now going to whinge its apt. Ywhw is not just (or in existence, mind you) and nor is this Christian concept of third party paying. Of course, if you want to keep your blind obedient faith (to your church and not God mind you) then do so. <BR/><BR/>Again, Its not my fault that you can't seem to grasp simple logic. Its all been set out for you (for my part, I dont want to get into arguments about korans and hadiths etc - Im not an islamic scholar and couldnt be bothered doing the research unless I was knocking down a muslim, which you are not). I blame the school system.CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-21463985749325985832008-07-02T16:27:00.000+10:002008-07-02T16:27:00.000+10:00"So if your brother commits murder will a just jud...<I>"So if your brother commits murder will a just judge send you to jail. No, you are not responsible for your brothers actions. Rather, a just judge may only punish your brother for his crimes. Hence the Christian god is not just as he seeks to punish Jesus for our "crimes"."</I><BR/><BR/>You must remember that if someone has a fine that they must pay, the law is not concerned about how they get the money to pay it (whether their parents help them out paying for it or whatever). But rather, the law is only concerned that the fine is paid. So in the same way, the Bible says we have a fine of death to be paid, and so either we pay for it in Hell eternally or Jesus can pay it for us on the cross if we trust in Him.<BR/><BR/><I>"I think I can empathise with Yusuf Estes in relation to your ignorance of logical argument."</I><BR/><BR/>Once again, I repeat, what logical fallacies have I committed? You cannot just say my arguments are flawed without showing why they are.Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-30766339271422743922008-07-02T09:04:00.000+10:002008-07-02T09:04:00.000+10:00It is completely different because in Christianity...<I>It is completely different because in Christianity, God shows mercy but remains just at the same time. How? God did not overlook our sins, but rather the fine (of death) that we need to pay because of our sins can be taken by the sinless Jesus Christ on the cross. But we must trust that he died on the cross for our sins. That is what makes Christianity unique from every other religion in the world.</I><BR/><BR/>So if your brother commits murder will a just judge send you to jail. No, you are not responsible for your brothers actions. Rather, a just judge may only punish your brother for his crimes. Hence the Christian god is not just as he seeks to punish Jesus for our "crimes". By your own definition:-<BR/><BR/><I>criminals who break the laws receive the punishment that has been set for breaking that law.</I><BR/><BR/>Yhwh is not a just judge. <BR/><BR/>As to your other objections, I think I can empathise with Yusuf Estes in relation to your ignorance of logical argument. <BR/><BR/>PS. I dont claim to be an islamic scholar and I dont really want to argue in favour of another silly faith. I do, however, note that nothing you have said actually support christianity - rather, if one faith is wrong then why can't all faiths be wrong?CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-61905071773662429472008-07-02T06:28:00.000+10:002008-07-02T06:28:00.000+10:00Two things. First, it is amazing that Muslims arou...Two things. First, it is amazing that Muslims around the world think that Catolicism has something to do with Christianity. I wonder where they got that and why it is still taught to them. <BR/><BR/>Second, the Muslim said "Therefore, the Quran could not be from someone living in the desert 1,400 years ago - who did not even know how to read or write." <BR/><BR/>Historically isnt it true that the Quran was compiled by tons of little scrap papers written by Mohammed over a period of years in the wilderness. He did know how to read and write. He read the Bible and that is where he got some of his information. Allah did not give those things to Mohammed, he thought about the Bible and had ideas of his own (of what a god should be like and what the people should believe about that god) and he scribbled them down. After he died someone gathered them together and eventually put them together as a book of the writings of Mohammed. It wasn’t until later that a follower of his claimed it to be the words of God. <BR/>?<BR/><BR/>PS> Thank you for blogging. I think a lot of great things you guys discuss during your evangelism on the streets will be posted here for believers to use when they are themselves witnessing.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16510185527300135881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-35901834008858219212008-07-01T18:10:00.000+10:002008-07-01T18:10:00.000+10:00Justice is: criminals who break the laws receive t...Justice is: criminals who break the laws receive the punishment that has been set for breaking that law. And Allah has set that as being Hell. So if Allah wants to be classed as a just judge, then he simply cannot be merciful and let people into Heaven without their sins being punished.<BR/><BR/><I>"Surely, if Jesus can forgive a man who repents then surely Allah can forgive a man that becomes a muslim - or are those things completely different?</I><BR/><BR/>It is completely different because in Christianity, God shows mercy but remains just at the same time. How? God did not overlook our sins, but rather the fine (of death) that we need to pay because of our sins can be taken by the sinless Jesus Christ on the cross. But we must trust that he died on the cross for our sins. That is what makes Christianity unique from every other religion in the world.<BR/><BR/><I>"A 'morally sufficient reason' could be that allowing christs deception was necesary to bring about the end times, in which the Koran says that Islam will succeed."</I><BR/><BR/>That is not a morally sufficient reason. The end times would come anyway. Not only that, Allah wants all to come to Islam and not reject 'the truth'. But what Allah apparently did 2000 years was exactly the opposite.<BR/><BR/><I>"Does the Koran or the Hadith say that the Gospel is the word of God."</I><BR/><BR/>It's the Qur'an that says it. Additionally, certain Haddiths are also claimed to be inspired.<BR/><BR/><I>"Ironically, you havent even made an argument - well not a logical one at least"</I><BR/><BR/>And you, just like Yusuf Estes, are yet to show which logical fallacies I have apparently committed.Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-27213816916153334422008-07-01T13:25:00.000+10:002008-07-01T13:25:00.000+10:00Ryan, I dont disagree with you that islam is a fal...Ryan, <BR/><BR/>I dont disagree with you that islam is a false religion. But I do note that all religion is, technically, false. <BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, could you give me your meaning of 'just' and let us compare it to every other meaning of 'just' - sure they will have the same character, but will they be exactly the same? <BR/><BR/>For one man, 'just' is punishing all that are guilty, to another 'just' is letting all men realise their own crime and to another 'just' is destroying a man because of what he is and not what he has done. Which version do you use against allah? <BR/><BR/>Surely, if Jesus can forgive a man who repents then surely Allah can forgive a man that becomes a muslim - or are those things completely different? To you, they may be. But you are biased. <BR/><BR/>A 'morally sufficient reason' could be that allowing christs deception was necesary to bring about the end times, in which the Koran says that Islam will succeed. Without people believing in Christianity would we have had the Crusades or the War in Iraq? <BR/><BR/>It is not hard to come up with a reason which could satisfy a God as bloodthirsty and cruel as Allah or yhwh. <BR/><BR/>On the point of contradiction, the Koran is a recitation - the hadith loses to the Koran. Does the Koran or the Hadith say that the Gospel is the word of God. If it is the hadith then it did not come from Mohammed and is not the word of God according to muslim scholars. Nevertheless, I agree with you that the Koran and (particularly) the Hadith are full of inconsistent and whacky stuff. But, saying that, none of it supports faith in your religion either. <BR/><BR/>Ironically, you havent even made an argument - well not a logical one at least - just some subjective judgements about another faith. Another reason why atheism is the way to go.CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-48615540245914584482008-07-01T10:24:00.000+10:002008-07-01T10:24:00.000+10:00"You are actually importing your own notion of wha...<I>"You are actually importing your own notion of what is justice in here"</I><BR/><BR/>You need to realise Alex, that words have meanings. And if Allah wants to be claimed as being a just judge, he must actually be so. And he is not.<BR/><BR/><I>"Although they may write down a certain thing, it is not the truth because it was not the word of God"</I><BR/><BR/>But if the Qur'an says the Gospel was given by Allah, then it is the Word of Allah so it should not contradict the other things that Allah says.<BR/><BR/><I>"but can you not see that Allah may have morally sufficient reasons to create such a deception?"</I><BR/><BR/>Such as? You must give an example of something that is plausible for that even to be an option. But I don't think you will even be able to list a 'possible' morally sufficient reason Allah might have to not make him a deciever. There are simply no valid reasons to excuse deception. And because of that deception, damn the billions people who are Christians to Hell because they beleive Jesus did die on the cross.<BR/><BR/>So thus all my arguments still stand, that Islam is a false religion.Ryan Hemelaarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902805101742992509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5438889006230803241.post-67503167625070849152008-07-01T10:00:00.000+10:002008-07-01T10:00:00.000+10:00Ryan, I agree Islam is faulty, as is all theistic ...Ryan, <BR/><BR/>I agree Islam is faulty, as is all theistic belief, but the reasons you gave are really weak and I can see why Yusuf did not want to respond. <BR/><BR/>1. Argument from Allahs Justice<BR/><BR/>You are actually importing your own notion of what is justice in here (IE, you think that justice is about punishing the guilty - is that really the case?). Allah could have morally sufficient reasons for forgiving any person that converts to islam. <BR/><BR/>The real reason that allah is not just is because he requires belief in him without providing any evidence of his existence. Accordingly, he is punishing those that use their critical faculties - even though he supposedly gave humans critical faculties. Same accusation can be thrown at yhwh re commandment no 1. <BR/><BR/>Argument from crucifiction and Argument from inconsistency with the Gospel are pretty much the same (Although you could provide further examples where the Koran and Gospel are inconsistent). <BR/><BR/>Re both, Islam correctly notes that it is not Jesus who identifies himself as being resurrected but rather the apostles. Although they may write down a certain thing, it is not the truth because it was not the word of God (as the Koran ([supposedly] is) but rather an account given by followers of a prophet. Thus the word is not perfect and is defeated by the actual word of God (supposedly) in the Koran. Islam states that such a deception was played on the apostles - thus Christ was not risen, it just appeared to be so. <BR/><BR/>I note this leads onto your argument that this would require Allah to be a deceiver, but can you not see that Allah may have morally sufficient reasons to create such a deception? <BR/><BR/>It was for these reasons that Yusuf thought your criticism was silly. A person that held the islamic faith would respond in that way, for the same reasons you do not accept criticism of your own God. <BR/><BR/>The fact that you are both wrong is just funny. Of course, I would be somewhat careful when making these criticisms as you are actually attacking another faith from a subjective standpoint. Nonetheless, keep it going - I need all your help in destroying these terrible faiths, one at a time.CASE - now with holinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525074735510880518noreply@blogger.com